It seems the time has really come to consider a change in comments policy at MBC.
This was a week in which we had some days with substantive, well-considered comments, and some days with comments that went off the rails. So maybe it really is time to change, if this is disrupting the average reader's experience – as we often hear.
We recognize that the final decision on the subject belongs to your humble correspondent here. But we'd rather get some input first. Please vote in the poll – and keep in mind that you can vote for all the options you like. Voting closes Weds. at 8pm. Please support your rationale for voting within the comments on this story.
Know this: We've so far deleted about 5 comments in one year of MB Confidential. (Excluding SEO advertising BS.) Not one deleted comment was critical of the blog or the author. Allowing your direct criticism of the content is vital.
In our view, there ought to be sufficient room for a spirited debate, emotional at times, even with harsh words. Perhaps you disagree and want something more watered-down and with more rules.
Most particularly, we want to find the balance between encouraging free discussion and maintaining a somewhat civil forum. Our chief concern is that requiring sign-in, in any form, is going to restrict people from posting what might otherwise be useful, valuable information and perspective. That's why we've held off all this time.
It's true, MBC could set up guidelines and we could be more aggressive in moderating the comments. However, we don't relish the extra work. And we're sure people will feel stifled and perhaps treated unfairly along the way.
That's why our preference is to go with some form of sign-in requirement, but not much more. There are 2 options, requiring Google identities or Open ID identities – a broader option that includes Google. (Click Open ID for a little more info.) We're thinking this doesn't burden posters much, given that anyone can set up a gmail account or an identity under other Open ID providers that is private to everyone on the outside.
The hypocrisy angle: There's a rather obvious point to be made here while we're on the subject. If MBC comments require sign-in, shouldn't the author's identity be made public?
However, that's a nonsequitur. We can't imagine a comments policy that requires "true" identities to post. If we don't do much more comment moderation, really we're just talking about requiring posters to use handles. Will that be sufficient to improve the tone?
Consider your vote and comment here – anonymously if you like.
Sunday, March 30, 2008
What to Do with Comments?
Posted by
MBWatcher
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2:37 PM
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41 comments:
I find your blog to very informative but I do agree some of the posting do get way off topic and not in the spirit of the blogs purpose.
MBW, why put out a poll?
The grade-school commenters have bullied most everyone else away, and they will choose to remain masked.
At least require folks to have some sort of handle.
Its YOUR blog, not theirs.
I actually am a fan of the site, to hear both sides. Sometimes I think the prices are ridiculous and we live next to a factory and a sewage plant and sometimes I just want to buy a condo with no backyard and surf el porto. But, I actually stopped reading the comments because some were so lame I couldn't handle it. I think people who don't make the effort to login don't matter. I don't really want to know their off the cuff responses anyway. Bring me back MBC, I want to read the comments again [tearful sigh].
Didn't log in to post that, too lazy.
We've been reading since we moved here. Good blog. Your hard work shows. And as you probably know, if you put yourself out there, in any way, you'll get all kinds of criticism, deserved or not.
I think being dropped from The Easy Reader speaks volumes about your blog's impact (or perceived impact) on real estate in the local community. Seriously, MBW, have you been the one to bring about a slow down in the market? I mean never mind the credit crunch, the recent volatility of Wall Street, institutional bail-outs and the printing of money by the Fed. It could be you who's really behind it all...
The tone of the comments section is reflective of the population so all you can do is moderate the more extreme ones.
The issue is not "both sides", it's the nature of the commentary. Unfortunately, requiring IDs will not prevent uncivil commentary since IDs are easily manufactured and the uncivil are usually quite determined.
What I have seen work best is a blog in which posters need to request membership followed up by board moderation by 1 or more administrators.
Good Luck!
MBC you have repeated referred to yourself as a "correspondent." I believe Edward R. Murrow would've take exception to this as there have been no anonymous correspondents in the history of journalism. You might want to refrain from referring to yourself as a correspondent as it's laughably self-aggrandizing. You're a blogger and a very good one. Secondly, your argument that your identity is a non sequitor rings hollow in the context of this debate (by the way there is a space between non and sequitor). That said, you do a very good job and at times you're even whimsical (e.g) The Francisco Street Story and other times, like all of us, you fall short (523 Marine). As for Nick, either get off your high horse and sign your full (real) name or remain anonymous and acknowledge that we're all a part of the same hypocrisy.
Anon 5:53 - Huggies
I'm not on a high horse, just simply relaxing in my rental with my family, watching the sunset, and happy that my cash (helped by the sale of a home in August 2006) is in not in auction notes.
I'm buying t-bills tomorrow and lots of 'em. That way when you you can't pay the bills since you can't move any real estate, and can't pay your first mortgage, second mortgage and heloc, and your house forecloses, I'll be able to buy it at 50% off.
And guess what - MBC will help me figure out when that happens!
All the best, Nick
p.s. if you are going to respond, please sign in with a name, so we can give credit to you in advance for your witty answer. Oh, and make sure to keep my house in good shape for me - or I'll ask for more money off during closing.
MBW - i have been a big fan of forcing some registration and probably more than untrackable alias names, though people do feel a bit more exposed with even those. I understand on yourside, keeping this hot, and like watching a train wreck - brings in audience... and nothing wrong with that.
You need to ask yourself:
- National Enquirer, People, Easy Reader ;-) etc
- Time, Newsweek, NYT, WSJ
Both have a place.. but different audiences and advertisers etc.
Your call - the train wreck is fun for a short while, but i prefer a quality dialogue over the long haul...
6:54- Then get rid of Nick. No substance, he's logged in, but what good does it do? His last post offered nothing to the conversation nor any substance.
Nick- Goodluck with the 50% off. You can live in 3412 Pacific. Oh wait, that only a little over 19% off in a short sale.
I love the idea of everybody using a handle. Whether it is MBW, MBInsider, Huggy, Mookie, Anon7, or Nick, at least we know they take responsibility for their posts and are willing to take the critisism thrown their way. When Huggy, MBI or Mookie post, while I don't always agree, I can take them seriously because there is substance. With all of the Anonymous's out there you get too many juvenile comments. I want to hear the most provocative people that have something solid to say and tying the comments to a name helps all of us sort out who is worth listening to.
Jonny Knoxville:
Here here. Everyone should have a handle. Nick should have a handle to a shovel to help move the bs.
Give it up, you loser. That was the second dumbest post to date.
Is Huggy the target for every pissed off poster? Lame, you moron (ooh, the m word). Give it up, Nick. PS, I'll keep my handle, so you know who I am. PS, it was 5:03, not 5:53 dumbass.
MBW, if you are wondering why this is going on, read Nick's post.
Here, Here Mike- We all know the substance Mookie, Anon 7 and Nick have given us. Copy and paste articles.
MBW- Wouldn't mind at all if you blocked everyone from posting unless it is related to MB real estate. Anyone can copy and paste an article. I liked the person that referred to the block in Marin County. Much more civilized.
I meant blog, not block. Now I can be called a moron by Anon 7, Mookie and Nick. Guess, it's too cold typing on my ocean view deck that is about to depreciate 50%.
Hey 5:03, points well taken. I don't need to use YHC anymore. Never thot twice about it.
And I'll keep posting whatever strikes with the occasional risk of falling short.
You're also right, non sequitur does call for a space – altho it ends -tur, not -tor, so two points, not three on that one.
6:42 p.m.
Nick, Nick, Nick. Is the whole family enjoying the bong or are you keeping it all to yourself?
From 5:03 to MBW.
Point well taken on sequitur "tur" vs. tor. Am honestly a huge fan of this site. You really do an amazing job. Frankly, I don't care if you are a renter, realtor or owner. This site is very informative and fun. And yes, I hope you always print what you believe is right. To paraphrase Voltaire: I may disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. Keep it coming, MBW. Cheers.
Oh and "Nick," clearly the comments have not come out in your favor. Now that you've stated your mastery of our financial system, I'm quite certain that Chairman Bernake awaits your words with bated breath. Please keep your wisdom coming as our country could use your sage advice at this trying time. Yes, "Nick" I will also defend your right to speak your mind, as it were. You want me to sign it? Here it is:
Not Anonymous "Nick"
I liked the word "correspondent" but I'm not a stickler for the old rules of language. Murrow is long dead. He doesn't care anymore. His cloud either has a view, or it doesn't.
"Correspondent"==reporting from the field. "Blogger"==reporting from my head. Not everyone can honestly use the word correspondent, but it fits here.
MBW - I first learned of your site after Ed Kaminisky responded to me like a complete A-Hole from an add he had posted on Craig's List for a house he was repping. I told him , rather politely, that I thought his published asking price was a little ambitious, but that I would like to discuss a more realistic deal if he was interested. He basically told me to f - off and accused me of being you. I immediately dialed up your site, (a like mind in MB???!!! How exciting!)
From that day on, I have been a daily reader and part time poster. Oh, and I now take the bashing from Kaminsky last year as a real compliment!
I agree that the banter gets a little out of control at times, but I don't think that making people log in will be any more effective in cutting down on the crap really.
bulls will be bulls, bears will be bears...we obviously have a market environment at odds...hence the success of the site!
I do enjoy how defensive and dismissive your bulls are though...but hey, I can hardly blame them. If I had as much at stake to lose as some of the people around here, you bet your ass I'd be defending my position as well.
ps: we were about ready to pull the trigger on a place last week - my husband liked it, I thought so so... and the RE guy my husband is working with at Shorewood said that unless you love the place, don't make an offer because if you HAVE TO sell in the next couple of years you may run into a problem.
Not sure what all that means but I definitely took my offer off the table...for now.
All the best, and thanks again for an entertaining and informative forum.
Awesome anecdote, 10:44. Who knew the haters were doing MBC's promo?
Good advice you got, assuming it's true. I mean – you are anonymous ;)
I think threaded comments would be the most effective thing to do. Unfortunately, I don't think Blogspot has that feature available.
Although I would support forcing use of the Name/URL identity if the poll had offered that option, I voted to allow Anonymous comments, because in general, applying more rules only forces more cheating. A better option is usually to enable the users to do what they want to do in the first place.
Threaded comments would allow people who want to talk about a particular subtopic to do so in an organized and sensible format, (whether they're discussing interest rates, or yelling about who dropped out of grade school first). Threaded comments would also allow everyone else to easily read or skip certain topics, allowing them to filter out whatever they're not interested in.
My vote is for threads, but if that's not available, then I vote to remove the Anonymous option. We are all faceless characters and it is impossible to keep things straight when everyone's conversations are mixed up, and everyone has the same name, 'Anonymous'.
10:44- Really, an agent telling you not to buy? What agent is that? I'd be surprised it is true, since it is anonymous.
What if this site spewed marital and relationship advice and the blogger sounded knowledgeable and wise, but you found out he was a bald, middle-aged bachelor who lived in his mom's basement? Wouldn't THAT make a difference to all of you faithful followers?
Or how do you know that MBW isn't an LMU Socialogy major (with a minor in Journalism) studying the concept of a demagogue? Or perhaps he is one of the hundreds of local me-too's who attempted to jump on board the real estate agent circuit only to discover it wasn't as easy as he thought?
MBW is a talented writer, no doubt, but I think far too much trust is placed in his opinions since we know nothing about who he is and why he is an authority.
But what if he does have credibility and isn't "just" a talented writer? What if he has worked in the trenches of Real Estate successfully, but opted to return to corporate America for the secuirty of a monthly salary? Wouldn't that make his blog that much more valuable?
MBW, as long as you hide your identity, it is undoubtedly because if people knew who you were, it would tarnish your credibility. Until you come out of the closet and proudly show your face, you really are just another blogger. But you have the potential to be so much more. Think about it.
it takes no time at all to set up a google gmail account.
Hi Kevin, let's not confuse the issues. Most people are rationale enough that they will take into consideration that this is a blog when assigning value to what they hear here.
Considering some of the angst that has been directed MBW's way, I totally understand his desire to remain anonymous....a lot of the rhetoric is negative enough that I would not want to trade places with MBW.
>because if you HAVE TO sell in the next couple of years you may run into a problem.
>Not sure what all that means but I definitely took my offer off the table...for now.
Sorry, if I'm OT here, but I had to respond to this.
What part of this don't you understand? You have cash now, presumably (hopefully no ARSs). The country is heading for Great Depression II. Should you be forced to relocate, the house would be illiquid until a recovery sometime beyond 2012. If you don't own outright somewhere sustainable, when the economy really starts to thrash, mobility will be at a premium.
Great blog, Blogger, by the way. The anonymous blogger and her anonymous commenters makes for a living performance art piece. I love it.
Well, if wesley (with no profile) says so, it abolutely MUST be true. Great Depression? We don't even have the 1st of two consectuvie quarters of negative GDP to ID a recession, and you're calling for another Great Depression? For those of you who wonder, this is why the response "moron" is so useful. All you can do is shake your head at someone like wesley. If you want respect for your opinion, post your credentials. Yes, you can say the same about me, but I am not advising someone on what to do with his home. I am just calling you out as a moron. Clearly, I don't need any credentials for that!
Let's take a step back and look at the comment:
"because if you HAVE TO sell in the next couple of years you may run into a problem."
In almost any market, this is true (except those 20% in a year days). You should only buy a home for the long term. It is not a short term play. Trying to read anything but decent advice is naive.
Homes are not for short term trading. You buy them to live in them unless this is your career. If that is the case, you aren't a homeowner; you are a speculator.
Wesley, I wouldn't say you are OT, seem's more like OTR.
LOL, Oh, dear, credentials are a requirement here? I guess that's why everyone posts as anonymous... o__O
I was simply translating for the real estate agent. What part of "in an uncertain economy, cash is a better thing to possess than a house you can only unload at a loss, if at all" not rational? Come on, this is an realtor, working on commission saying this. If they aren't thinking doomsday, why in the world would they talk someone out of a sale?
(Well, unless this person is also her broker and they talked her into putting all her cash into ARSs and knows she can't touch it. That DID cross my mind as an explanation.)
Wesley,
welcome to the forum. Maybe you were just posting as anonymous before, but its good to see a name goes with the comments.
The brokers (all anonymous posters) are not going to like you, in fact, if got a penny for every time you are called a 'moron', you might have enough for a downpayment of a discounted home.
I agree with your financial assesment. If West Palm Beach is in huge trouble, it just takes time to filter up.
-Nick
90266
p.s. I forgot to give a shout out to the Bulls(h*tters). Hey y'all!
MBW:
Case in point. You can require a logon and still get dumb comments like this:
"p.s. I forgot to give a shout out to the Bulls(h*tters). Hey y'all!"
It adds little value what so ever to require a logon. The same happens when posts are anon, though.
Anon 5:08
You are right. Mine was exactly the kind of comment that gets me so frustrated. I apologize for my dumb comment.
Nick
MBW,
I have noticed that the quality of the comments has deteriorated over the last few weeks. Although some of the vociferous bulls and bears who used to dominate this blog used to be annoying sometimes, at least they were reasonably articulate and, occasionally, witty.
I started to wonder if some pissed-off broker had hired a group of Mira Costa HS detention room underachievers to clog your comments section with insults and nonsequiturs (evidence: how could any adult talk like that?). The best thing to do with such people is to treat them like everyone else does in their miserable lives - just ignore them. It won't do any good to acknowledge them as a problem by requiring logins or anything of that nature; they will just circumvent those measures and relish in the attention.
Keep up the good work. We appreciate it.
Well, kids in detention need work, too... :)
"The best thing to do with such people is to treat them like everyone else does in their miserable lives - just ignore them." Right. Just like old people.
MBW:
This is really a hard one and many seem to struggle with creating an environ which engages without the shrillness being out of control: openness, access, freedom vs. tyranny, mono-tonal views and yes, the usual blather which stifles discourse.
Greg Mankiw created a blanket policy and here it is verbatim (amazing stuff folks, cut and paste! -- c/p can only happen if one bothers to read, hopefully widely and is then willing to share what is learned with attribution ;-)):
"A prominent economist emails me some comments on a previous post, with the following preface:
I do not feel like responding on the site. It feels like shouting in a crowded room.
This got me to rethink my comments policy. In the past, I have deleted only a very few comments that readers have posted. But I think it may be time to turn down the volume of the shouting in order to raise the level of the discussion.
Here is my new policy: Anyone is free to disagree with me, or with other commenters as long as it is done politely. Comments that take a belligerent approach to economic debate are at risk of being deleted.
Please approach this blog with the civility you would bring to a college seminar. Don't post anything here that you wouldn't say to a fellow seminar participant face to face."
------------
My humble suggestion would be to create some version of this policy where deletions by the moderator are done selectively but decisively to encourage engagement, enable the full spectrum of opinions to be presented and yet discourage shrillness -- folks learn what they cannot get away with and in time the feel will hopefully improve.
Much luck!
That comment policy is pretty close to where I might go.
Question: Do I need to explain deletions or just cut away? I cut 3 in a row tonite that were silly.
BTW the alternative some folks have pointed to, a discussion forum such as that launched recently at the Marin site, is a BBS system that would take some work to set up and host (not to mention a trifling amount of money) and then to moderate. I've steered clear to focus on the RE work here, but I'm aware of the option, thanks.
I reckon if it's worth cutting, it's not worth explaining -- the very act of cutting a comment will let the commentator know that it was not proper and you won't have to keep justifying -- decreases your workload.
On the comments issue, I haven't yet seen anyone say "I will not post comments if you require sign-in." Is there anyone who does comment from time to time who feels in some way put off, intimidated, whatever? Please explain if so.
About deleting comments, if you think they should go, I don't need to read them (an I don't need an explanation). You've been doing this for a year, and as far as I'm concerned, proven yourself...
I think using a handle is a great idea -- it gets really hard to follow a conversation between anonymous and anonymous -- it would be much easier to start to identify each commenters biases and leanings if there were consistent handles.
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