Tuesday, May 13, 2008

The 90s: What a Drag

The last big housing slump was in the mid-1990s. Everyone took a hit, but how bad was it in MB?

Data from Dataquick, compiled by MBC, paint the picture.

Our graph here (click to enlarge further) shows the change in median home prices in Manhattan Beach throughout the 1990s. The two separate series here come from the same data, although one series (the top two lines, in blue and red) is adjusted for inflation, showing values in 2007 dollars. The bottom series (green and orange) uses the values reported from each year without any adjustment.

Let's start with that bottom series, since adjusted figures can be confusing. Here, the green, bouncy line shows the median price of all homes (SFRs, THs and condos) sold in a given month. The orange line shows the 12-month moving average – the average of that month plus the 11 months before it. The moving average smooths out seasonal factors and limits the problem of small samples sizes month-by-month. (The data start in 1988, but we start the graph in 1989 to allow that 11-month look back in time.)

You'll see that median prices were on an upward trend by 1989, peaking early in the chart at $506,938 in July 1990. (All dollar figures we cite here come from the 12-month averages.) Then a slower, steady reversal took hold. Four years later, in July 1994, a trough was reached at $366,354. This was slightly below the January 1989 figure.

The drop, peak-to-trough: 27.7%.

The recovery to July 1990 levels took almost 4 more years. The chart notes that a value of $509,506 was reached in March 1998 – 44 months after the trough. That means the pause between the peak and the return to peak was 7 years, 9 months.

Now, anyone knows that the value of a dollar – or 500,000 of them – changes quite a bit over 8 years. So the return to "peak" values in March 1998 is a bit misleading. On paper, it was the same median price, but the real value wasn't the same.

To see how steep the real decline was, and how long the recovery really took, we look again at the data in constant dollars – in this case, using 2007 dollars across the board. (We had a choice here of constant dollars tied to 2000 – the last year in the chart – or 2007, i.e., current dollars. We chose 2007, partly because future graphs in this series will also use 2007 dollars.)

Using 2007 dollars affords us an interesting view of MB home values. When we adjust all the values in the chart, we learn that homes at the median were worth $912,373 in today's dollars at the peak in July 1990. That's almost double the $500k or so we saw in nominal dollars.

Perhaps more interestingly, this chart is implying that you ought to be able to buy a median-priced home today in MB for about $900k – the peak price of 18 years ago. Of course, you can't. Prices have gone far higher than a mere inflation adjustment would account for.

The timing of the drop in values in the early 1990s coincides with that found in the first chart – the drop ran till July 1994, down to $596,782. (Anyone for a $600k MB house?)

The drop, peak-to-trough, in constant dollars: 34.6%.

The recovery of values in real-dollar terms took much longer. It was 70 months (5 yrs., 10 mos.) from the trough until the previous peak value was reached again in May 2000. The total gap between the peak in July 1990 and the return to peak in May 2000 was 9 years, 11 months. That means, in simplest terms, if you bought at the peak, you had to hold the home for nearly 10 years to be able to sell it again for the same real value.

We're also re-publishing our first graph from the DataQuick series here, partly to note that sales totals in MB consistently exceeded 500 per year even in the slumpiest year (1995), while running at a rate near 800 per year for almost 4 years before that real-dollar peak was re-attained in the year 2000.

Those sales figures suggest that, while lower demand briefly followed the price trough, substantially higher demand kicked right back in. And yet, over several years, more sales still did not correspond to much higher prices.

As we've previously noted, the sales pace of 2006 was consistent with cruddy 1995 while 2007 sank below that to a new sub-500 low. The pace in 2008 is even slower. We'll look at the runup of the 2000s shortly and ask when the slower sales pace might begin to affect prices in a significant way. The curious lesson from this 1990s experience is that when the sales pace picks up again some day in MB, higher prices are by no means guaranteed to follow.

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UPDATE: The story originally said that the price recovery from the mid-90s low was reached in March 2000. It was May 2000, as the current version shows.
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Nerdy Notes

Important caveat: The charts are imprecise in one respect – we are using monthly median prices for all of this analysis. Even the 12-month moving average represents a smoothed average of 12 monthly median prices, which is not the same as the "true" median for that particular 12-month period. The "true" median could only be calculated month-by-month by DataQuick using the actual sales records for 243 months that went into this dataset. We believe this representation is accurate and certainly illustrative, but it necessarily falls short of that ultimate precision.

Sources: The figures presented here come from a dataset produced by DataQuick Information Systems. Data for sales of one-family homes (including SFRs, THs and condos) in Manhattan Beach were purchased by an MBC reader and forwarded to us. (Thanks!) We have permission to create and publish charts and analyses using the data, but we cannot provide substantial amounts of the source material, per the agreement with DataQuick. (In other words, they want to keep the raw data private.)

Adjustments for inflation were made using data published by the U.S. Dept. of Commerce, Bureau of Economic Analysis. We used the bureau's implicit price deflator figures for residential investment, the figure most appropriate to home prices. These figures are published for each quarter of each year; therefore, each quarter's worth of median price data has been adjusted separately, rather than using an annual figure for each year's data. Quarter 4 of 2007 is the base figure used for all the adjustments – not only are we using constant 2007 dollars, but Q4 '07 dollars.

141 comments:

Anonymous said...

Wow - Thanks for this, MBW. You should win a Pulitzer or whatever they award to bloggers for all the work you've done to put together this story. I'm going back to mull it over but I know there's some really important stuff here.

Now let the games begin...

Anonymous said...

I can't remember my blogger name, so I'll post "anonymously". It's ARDELL

Seems to me, given my experience in MB, that the price increases had more to do with new construction. I bought a 1991 built townhome in 2001, just when the market started increasing. Seems to me the jump in prices had more to do with the increase in tear downs.

As new homes were built and sold at mega-increased prices, because they were NEW and bigger than what was torn down, it brought up the price of land and with it the price of homes.

There were fewer new houses built from 90 through 95 and maybe into 98. Once builders started building again in big numbers, the prices gained momentum.

What is happening now in terms of builders buying teardowns? That could be a sign of where the prices are going to trend over the next 3-5 years.

The volume numbers were very interesting. But I agree, volume alone doesn't seem to push or pull on prices as much as new housing starts.

JR said...

Thank you for the analysis, MBW. May I ask, what is the geographic area for the data? Additionally, is there historical info concerning the number of SFR's, TH's, and Condo's in the same geographic area?

Anonymous said...

MBW Thanks for this. JR's question is a good one. Pretty sure it doesn't include JR's trailer park. Kidding JR, kidding.

Anonymous said...

It's interesting to see the dead-cat bounce around 91-92 in both adjusted and unadjusted dollars.

MBWatcher said...

Geographic area is all of MB 90266, not just west of Sepulveda, if that's your question.

BTW I'd like to get this same data run excluding the non-SFR housing, but that wouldn't change the trends much.

Also, Ardell – I think it's generally agreed that builders are buying fewer teardowns, but since so much of that happens off-market it's harder to document.

Arenda said...

Bravo MBWatcher and the reader who paid for the data. This is a really fantastic bit of analytical work. The difference between your twelve month moving average and a 'true' median would be minuscule at best, but I appreciate your honesty and fairness in presenting the data.

The fact that prices were off 27.7% relative to the six-counties average of 19%, gives legs to the argument that MB fell farther than the more moderately priced neighborhoods in the area, during the last cycle. It would be interesting to superimpose this graph over a graph of the six-county median price during the same period, to see if MB also fell later during the last cycle.

Also, I think this post clearly shows that there can be a wrong time to buy a home, even in a place as great as Manhattan Beach, and especially if you are looking at your house solely as an investment vehicle (clean air, beaches, schools, etc. notwithstanding). It took close to ten years for someone who bought at the peak to break even in real dollars, and that doesn't count carrying costs (mortgage payments, taxes, etc.).

Additionally, that 19% drop in greater SoCal happened over a four year period (90-94), mind you, and was a blend of six counties that experienced both higher and lower drops relative to that average. Let's see what DataQuick says has happened in the last year alone:

L.A. County: -18.52%
Orange County: -18.92%
Riverside County: -26.08%
San Bernadino County: -28.38%
Ventura County: -25.09%
Santa Barbara County: -28.15%

Without much higher math, you can see that these numbers average out to over -19% in ONLY one year. "But these are monthly numbers and don't account for seasonality!" one may decry. Fine, reduce these numbers by 50% if you want to account for seasonality and be conservative in your forecasting (since we don't have enough monthly declining periods for a good moving average), it still would be magnitudes greater than any one year drop during the last cycle. Note: The nominal monthly peak to trough drop from 90-94 was 41% relative to a 27.7% 12-month moving average drop; a reduction of only 33% due to smoothing, so in all likelihood I am being conservative.

"So what do I do with all this bad news?" one may ask. Well, if you are happy where you are (willing to stay up to ten years) and can afford your payments on a long term fixed loan, then stay put. If you bought or aggressively refinanced at the peak in 2006-2007, have little equity, and are in a short term and/or adjustable rate loan, then you should realize that your equity is effectively a sunk cost and you should be willing to sell at a loss, unless you have additional cash to put up when the note comes due. Finally, if you are looking to buy: Wait. If the timing of past cycles holds true in this one, you will have plenty of time to buy well , when prices have been flat for a while, or even in the beginning of an upward trend. Good luck and good night.

Anonymous said...

I'm guessing this will not put to rest the debate over the previous bubble bursting's magnatude. Except maybe Huggy's ridiculous "15%-20% max" statements. There is quite a bit of "smoothed over" sales data that points to an even larger price drop, peak to trough. That's the problem when using 6 month data points and a 12 month moving average in the plotting of something far more volatile than the results suggest.

Either way, it's plain to see it was a bad time and a lot of people and institutions lost a ton of money. The question remains, just how bad will it get this time?

Anonymous said...

Bravo, bravo, braaaavo MBW!

Clearly, the effort it takes to do this kind of reportage is enormous: Thank You.

Timothy617 said...

You should publish this in the beach reporter.

PS
Good work.

shoppingaround said...

sorry-was so excited by the first chart, I didn't finish the article before I posted--glad to see the 2000+ data is already planned--man you are good!

Anonymous said...

MBW this chart is great. Thank you for your hard work. I have one note, it chart all of MB. Under your info and disclaimer statement, you mention the focus of MBC is SFR's WEST of Sepulveda. Sorry to be a stickler, but don't those homes east of Sep dramatically pull the numbers down?

Anonymous said...

Newsflash: Huggy is wrong, as always.

Anonymous said...

Glad to see that my 25-30% was pretty much right on. Thanks MBW for putting this together. I disagree with Arenda that MB took a greater hit than the moderately priced areas though. Not sure how he can say that. Long Beach took a beating of much more than 40-45%. Also, the Westside was down as much as 50% in the last downturn. I would have to assume that the valley and Riverside were down much more than 30% from what I can recall. But let Arenda keep arrogantly posting.

Anonymous said...

So what does this mean?

As someone who lived, worked and purchased 2 homes during the time frame studied, I can say that things have worked out great. Thankfully I didn't have a chart like this to look at otherwise I wouldn't have sold, bought, sold and bought again in the years between 1989 and 1999...and ended up in a very solid real estate position.

Whatever is happening in this recession is way different from the 90's. For one there is higher overall employment. Of course gas prices are way up. The southern Cal economy is much more diversified now. There is a severe credit crunch even though interest rates are super low...You can on and on.

History is written after the fact, but our real estate path sure defied history.

I guess my point is: buy if you can, wait if you must, but don't cast stones on other peoples choices because at this point no one is "right".

Anonymous said...

Where is that liar Huggy hiding today? Mr. "15-20% max, closer to 15%"?

We should give him a new handle, Liar Huggy.

Anonymous said...

9:50- Great words. Not everyone can be right. And if I had listened to everyone in 1997 not to buy a house I would have lost out immensely. Just wish I had sold sooner than last month, but oh well. Can't complain. I won't miss the next run-up as it really is pretty hard to miss it given years of stable prices followed by slight increases then eventually large increases. Again, if history repeats itself which it seems to every time.

Anonymous said...

10:00 a.m. Let's say that Hungy is lying. At least his motivation is clear as he makes his living selling RE. Why others on this website rant and rave is often baffling.

9:50 I think you a very wise and stated the facts fairly.
Incidentally, I'm in a similar, if not identical, position.

Anonymous said...

9:50, point well-taken, but facts help make more informed decisions; why not look at what happened in the past.

Anonymous said...

10:23, that's the silliest comment of the week, and there have been many!

Arenda said...

Anonymous 10:12 PM - You're right, the dead cat bounce is pretty clear during that period. Also, you can pretty clearly see the effects of the Russian financial crisis in 98-99.

Anonymous 9:37 AM - What is presumptuous of you, is that anyone would remember or care about your supposed 25-30% forecast, seeing as you are sniping from the back like the other 1,000 anonymous posters. Why don't you get yourself a handle and join the party? As for the hard facts: the 27.7% decline for Manhattan Beach was greater than than the 19% decline for the six greater L.A. counties. What is so hard to understand about that? I hate to break it to you, but median priced housing stock, which far outnumbers the high-priced housing stock across the six counties, is what defines that -19% average. However, I'm sure your memory is more reliable than DataQuick, which is understandable since you are one of those 'Big Fish Financial People.'

By the way, you should thank Huggy for pointing out that -19% DataQuick number cited by the L.A. times. Thanks little buddy!

Anonymous said...

Arenda=Agenda=Barenda=Anonymous

Anonymous said...

Arenda- You're wrong about the moderately priced areas as you were wrong about the foreclosed walk street property or you would give facts other than your SC education. Nice try though.

Anonymous said...

So who is right? Arenda who said a 41% drop or Huggy who cited the 19%. Seems like 19% is closer to 27% than Arenda's 41% and it doesn't take a statistics major to figure that one out. Arenda has offered no data to this blog, yet he rants about others.

Anonymous said...

Well, it's clear he can't be that bright. Is SC's MBA program even in the top 20? Why even put that out there?

Arenda - where'd you do your undergrad work? University of Phoenix?

Anonymous said...

#21 in Bizweek

Anonymous said...

Three houses on the Strand just went into foreclosure and my friend bought one in a closed silent auction for $87,268 That's a fact and it's even been mentioned on here in the past, but I can't tell you when or where the houses are because I don't want those dumb multi-millionaire lookey-loos skulking around my friend's new pad.

Anonymous said...

Arenda failed to mention that he got a C in Delores Conway's class which is the equivalent of failing an undergrad course.

Anonymous said...

MBW- You can't just say that a house in 1990 cost x and now it costs y. You need to take into account the fact that a 30 year fixed mortgage rate was around 10-11% in 1990 and now it is 6-7% so the real cost is much lower than what you are describing. I'll leave it to the financial whiz's on this site to figure that one out.

Anonymous said...

Arenda, the number of posts directed at you suggests you have something to say. Keep it up.

Anonymous said...

You do not need to take into account interest rates. It's obviously a factor in any run-up or downturn.

Anyone think 1:34 is just Arenda giving himself an anonymous pep talk?

Anonymous said...

sorry anon 1:39, that's Huggy's tactic

Arenda said...

Anon's Larry, Curly and Moe. That's what I'll call you since you choose to remain anonymous, and are most definitely stooges that apparently can't read. You could even be the same person, for all we know. I'll try to keep it REAL simple.

Larry: See my 11am post. 27.7% is higher than 19%, so Manhattan Beach declined at a higher rate than the greater LA median. Period. Don't try to deflect the issue with another one. As for whether OTHER high-end California neighborhoods follow a similar trend to MB's, I'm trying to get my hands on that data as we speak.

Curly: Both numbers are right. Huggy, about the annualized 19% decline across ALL SIX COUNTIES (NOT Manhattan Beach). And the unnamed guy who bought the data, for a MONTHLY decline of 41% from peak to trough in Manhattan Beach only. You're comparing apples to bananas. Also, you're right about me bringing no new data to the table, as what is being discussed all belongs to DATAQUICK. All I did was attempt to interpret the data. By the way, there was no need for you to say your not a stats major. Everyone knows. Trust me.

Moe: Zing! You got me. Way to add to the conversation with some new data or analysis. So far I have seen nothing concrete to refute anything said above. BTW, I never said the degree was an MBA.

It this seriously the best you can do?

Anonymous said...

I don't know how break this to you all, but I've been doing some checking around and as it turns out, Huggy is not involved in the real estate business. He is actually the actor Karl Hungus who starred in the 1977 drama "Man Grappler" on NBC. On the show his character was called "The Swede" and his profession was evicting people from their apartments who didn't pay up. In the episode titled "Door Jam" Huggy's character keeps removing the front door of a renter's apartment in the middle of the night until they finally moved out. He was known then as a thinking man's
Charles Bronson who delivered bad news with a cackle as he sipped cognac.

MBWatcher said...

Karl Hungus? I'm sure that is not related to real estate or economic issues, but it is funny.

If anyone has the direct link to DQ's recent 6-county data I'd appreciate that, in comments or by email. I was also going to look for any data they have on the 90s that has been published, to compare and contrast with our local-market data. Can't do much right now ("real job" beckons) but if someone else finds those links I'll use the data later. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

No direct link, but their site has a lot of free info and is pretty interesting.

http://www.dqnews.com/

Arenda said...

http://www.dqnews.com/

All the current charts they have are on the left. The LA Times aggregates all six counties resale data to get that six-county figure, so it is a 'true' median price. The best you can do here is see the six counties individual performance and do a weighted average based on total sales in each county. Also, they clear out the charts each month, but you can go into their archived articles section and glean some figures their. The only way I can see to get the 90's data, is in an already analyzed form (graphs, etc.) or to pay for the data.

Arenda said...

Beat me to the punch anon 2:26!

Anonymous said...

When factoring in the affordability of a house, of course you would have to take into account the interest rates in 1990 compared to now. Only makes sense.

Anonymous said...

Sorry Arenda you are wrong once again. Most moderately priced areas took a much larger hit than MB. Were you even here then? Like I said, Long Beach took over a 40% hit and some moderately priced parts of the WestSide took a 50% hit. Also, I'm not a realtor, but have asked 3 realtors now for any foreclosures on a walk street, and none has found any. I'm not saying realtors are worth much, but they do have access to the MLS and can pull title and other reports that we cannot. So unless you can prove me and some others wrong give up the address or you have no credibility on this site.

Timothy617 said...

Not really.
In 1990 prices were low and interest rates were high. Now prices are high and interest rates are low. So are you saying it's more affordable now or in 1990?

Interest rates should really not be taken into account in this analysis for MB.

Supply and demand of financing is a factor, but it's not going to change anything in this analysis.

Anonymous said...

Paralysis by analysis.

Whadda ya bet everyone overanalyzing the market misses everything...the house they really wanted, the loan they really wanted, the street they really wanted.....

Your house is a home and in the long term will be an investment. You don't run a 10 year IRR and decide whether to buy or lease...

Anonymous said...

What do Arenda and Bill Eisen (soon to be recalled MBSD member) have in common? The number of "posts" directed at them suggest they have something to say? Therefore they should "keep it up"? Your kidding right? By the way, still waiting for the info on the "walkstreet foreclosure". Credibility check is in order.

Anonymous said...

...huh?

The only people missing the market right now are the ones that bought in the last 2-years or are trying to sell currenlty.

10-yr IRR? these are homes as you stated. Anyone here running IRRs on their homes?

Anonymous said...

Timothy- Of course you would take into account interest rates. When looking at real dollars, inflation, salaries, etc, beginning salaries for undergrads is up 100% over 1990, and that coupled with lower interest rates would allow a buyer to buy a more expensive home. So not sure how you can say interest rates don't matter.

MBWatcher said...

A couple times I've seen confusion (or conflating?) of prices with affordability. Interest rates at a given time matter w/r/t affordability, not price.

You can't adjust the prices for affordability, or at least I can't imagine a way to do so.

If someone can state a concrete way to look at prices through the prism of interest rates or affordability I'll give it some thought.

Anonymous said...

MBW- It's the statement below.

Perhaps more interestingly, this chart is implying that you ought to be able to buy a median-priced home today in MB for about $900k – the peak price of 18 years ago. Of course, you can't. Prices have gone far higher than a mere inflation adjustment would account for.

While you are on point accounting for inflation, it's not the only factor to consider when you mention you ought to be able to buy a median-priced home today in MB for $900k. One must factor in salary growth and interest rates when you say "one ought to be able to..." This will hopefully never be the case or real estate prices would never expect to go up again after a downturn, but they always have, and hopefully will do again some day, albeit maybe in 4 years.

I'm not saying there's a concrete way to look at it, it's the statement above that you made that is not 100% accurate.

MBWatcher said...

Hm. I don't think that was a statement of fact in the story... "implying," "ought to." The point was that prices could be at $900k or so if not for other factors that have led to price increases beyond inflation. But of course, there are other factors.

People have mentioned some: new construction, higher incomes, lower rates, "affordability products" (nontraditional loans). That stuff, plus some amount of bubbly froth and excess enthusiasm...

BTW you would need to adjust incomes for inflation, too.

Timothy617 said...

Ask any appraiser if they have ever considered the current cost of a loan when determining its market value.
I believe MBWs analysis is to help identify where we are in our current RE cycle.
I did say interest rates are a factor, as are many other things.
An affordability index just calculates the ability of a median income family to afford a loan on a median home.
How is that relevant to the graph?

Anonymous said...

Very helpful analysis - thanks for the work done. Does the data allow you to calculate price/income or price/rent ratios? Those might reveal more about relative affordability over time.

JR said...

MBW,
The only way I can imagine that you would be able to adjust for different historical term structures of interest rates would be to calculate some ratio of levelized interest costs per $10K borrowed. But you would have to assume that all loans would be plain vanilla with equal terms and equal LTVs. Additionally, you would have to come up with a representative interest rate which would lead to more assumptions about the typical borrower. There are just too many moving parts to get to a useable adjustement factor.

But, why even remove the effects of differing borrowing characteristics? I'm a bear in this economy precisely because I believe that money was lent/given with a blind eye turned to risk. Too much money was available to buy houses and other assets and now those chickens are coming home to roost. So, if we remove some of the root causes of this bubble from our analysis I don't think we'll won't get as accurate a picture of what's going on when it deflates.

redflannel said...

Case-shiller publishes tiered indices for LA. If you plot the data for 1990-2000, the high price tier (>$648K) has a very similar shape to the DQ data for MB. The interesting difference is that the low price tier (<$434K), held the 1990 peak much longer and came down much slower. That would seem to be a very different situation than we are experiencing today.

Epsilon said...

A quick google search revealed this site, which has weekly average mortgage rates going back to 1992:

http://mortgage-x.com/x/
ratesweekly.asp

Rates for 30 year FRM are in the 7-9% range for the early 90s. Matched with the pricing data, a graph of historical monthly payments could be interesting (assuming you could find something that went back a few more years).

Not a full affordability metric, of course, and obviously income is a lot more localized than interest rates (and, of course, the 30-FRM rate is not as relevant today as 20 years ago), but it would still be an interesting graph...

In monthly payment terms, a $900,000 house at 8% is equivalent to a $1.1M house at 6%. (I'm sure low interest rates played some role in the bubble.)

Anonymous said...

Epsilon- Your data only goes back to 1992. Try this for some real info. Ask anyone back in 1990 what their rate was and it would have been at least 10%.

http://mortgage-x.com/trends.htm

Anonymous said...

Higher interest rates back in the 90's are what kept housing prices grounded. With 300% increases in 2008 on foreclosures in CA., you're going to see banks and lenders tightening like NEVER before. You're also going to see interest rates ramping up. This is only the beginning of the price correction housing is witnessing. All the current fundamentals of our weakening economy will continue to exert downward pressure, like you've never seen. This run-up has truly been historic in nature (IE: too lax of lending standards and rates so low too long )
and thus it stands to reason the decline will be as well...

Anonymous said...

8:35- The run-up is as historic as the period 1985-1990. Very similar in nature. So not sure why you think the downward pressure will be like we've never seen when we just saw it in the 1990s. Thanks for the newsflash.

Anonymous said...

The price of the home already reflects the prevailing interest rate. Isn't this one reason we are in the so called bubble (that and easy credit)?

Anonymous said...

JR is a bull in this economy? I didn't see this one coming. I'm glad JR finally declared himself because I thought he was about to start selling Amway products on here.

Anonymous said...

9:18,

Your statement, the price of the home already reflects the prevailing interest rate does not make any sense. Not sure where you are going with this one.

Huggy said...

I remain skeptical of MBW’s analysis.

First, his data is not readily accessible and will not be provided (so I guess that means I’ve got to plunk down DQ’s fee to obtain the raw data for myself). However, while I don’t have DQ’s data, I do have access to all MLS-reported sales going back to December, 1994 and there appear to be discrepancies.

For example, the median for all MLS-reported sales in 1995 was $436,500 but MBW’s chart shows the ‘moving’ median at or below $400,000 for almost that entire year. What could be the reason for this discrepancy? Granted, DQ has access to non-MLS sales but would those additional sales be so disproportionately below the MLS median as to drag it down a good 10%? Perhaps if the majority of them were lot sales (typically not reported on the MLS) but who can say for certain.

Also, the low of $366,354 (from MBW’s chart) is followed by a 1995 full-year median (according to our MLS) that is a good 19% higher. Did prices leap 19% between 1994 and 1995? Doubtful.

Also, the peak and trough for MB was July, 1990 and July, 1994 respectively according to MBW but DQ says the median for the entire Southland peaked in August, 1991 and bottomed in January, 1996 (Source: LA Times, Nov 27, 2007). Does the ‘moving’ median account for this disparity or did MB start dropping prior to the Southland as a whole (and recover faster as well)? If so, that is the exact opposite of what we’ve been seeing lately as the Southland numbers show steep regional declines while Manhattan Beach median home prices have dropped 8% if you compare last year’s median sale price ($1,722,500) with the median so far this year ($1,585,000). The drop is even less (-5.6%) if you compare the median price on SFRs alone ($1,699,000 this year versus $1,799,500 for all of last year) (Source:MRMLS). Again, is there a discrepancy in the data or was MB disproportionately affected by significant job losses and foreclosures in the early 90’s (neither of which is a factor here currently)?

But ultimately, I have to laugh at the Cult of the Clueless’ celebration of MBW’s charts. What losers! I didn’t buy at the peak but I was close enough to see a 15-20% drop in prices. If MBW’s calculations are correct and the peak was July, 1990, I can see the possibility of a 7% decline in the median before I purchased my home. Regardless, I’m glad I didn’t have a chart like MBW’s to scare me off – purchasing a home here has been a spectacular investment, even if I didn’t time the market like all the COTC market timing experts on this board (where’s that 40-50% decline the COTC has been screeching about?).

And that’s why COTC buffoons like 6:55 are wrong as usual (he said, “it's plain to see it was a bad time and a lot of people and institutions lost a ton of money.”). Uh, no , actually a lot of people made a lot of money – both buy and hold homeowners like myself and the many people who bought when the market was down (particularly in ’93 and ’94) and sold in the late 90’s or later. Everyone should read and re-read 9:50’s post – although he bought one more home than I did during the time frame under consideration, we both made out extremely well. Sorry to disappoint all of you in the cult.

Anonymous said...

Once again, MBW: You've outdone yourself here. A big "aye" for the blog Pulitzer!

In an attempt to complement MBW's rigorous efforts above, here is another question for our fecund DQ data genie:

What was the median cost of homes in Manhattan Beach relative to median household income during the last cycle (peak and trough) compared to the current level?

Median household income in MB in 1990 was $67723. Inflation adjusted, this 1990 census figure translates to $ 93784 in 1990 and $111902 in 2007. Independent estimates as late as 2005 suggest that the actual median household income for MB was $115,232.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/cphls/cphl128h.html

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06/0645400.html

http://www.city-data.com/zips/90266.html

This suggests that all this talk about "money" in MB is a phenomenon which does not substantially penetrate down to the level of actual income rise for the median households in MB, beyond essentially keeping up with inflation. This is NOT to say that there aren't folks with "real coin" in MB. Rather, it suggests that income stratification is following an established national pattern, where the "haves" have more and the relative "haves-less" remain stagnant in purchasing power (minus HELOCs and other classes of imploding loans). In the case of MB, this is in essence a substratification of the highest income quintile. There just aren't that many Bill Gates' around!

http://www.cbpp.org/11-28-06inc.htm

In economic and real estate down-cycles, one needs to watch for both the regression of purchasing power to the median income, especially from the higher end income brackets (whose income is often tied to bonuses and commissions linked to economic activity) and to the actual drop of median household income / purchasing power relative to inflation. To the extent that real gentrification has occurred in MB, the impact of this down-shift may proportionately be greater at the higher income end.

Actual household income based on the 2000 census was $100,700 and $115,232 for 2005 (estimated) as stated above.

What's particularly striking is a look at the ratio of median home price to median household income in MB.

In 1990, taking the peak of the cycle as calculated by MBW's 12 month moving average, the median price at peak is $ 506,938, thus the ratio of median home price to median household income in MB was 506938/67723 = 7.5 -- in 1990.

In 1994, using MBW's median price at trough of $366,354 and the income (adjusted for inflation from 1990) is $80,959 -- although this is hard to peg given the recession and lay-offs during this period. Assuming that income kept pace with inflation, this is MB after all ;-), then the ratio dropped to 366354/80,959 = 4.5 in 1994. This represents a drop by a factor of 3 from peak to trough; to a BASE ratio of 4.5.

Currently, the median home price in MB as a mean of the last 12 months is $1,620,985 (04/07-03/08) -- we are past the peak of the current cycle, but the gyrations in median price MoM given the paltry sales (and perhaps numerous other factors), makes pegging the exact peak a little difficult, something which will be resolved as more data becomes available.

The current ratio in Manhattan Beach is 1,620,985/115,232 = 14.1 -- it is practically twice as high this time around compared to 1990 (I'm happy to plug in more recent reliable median household incomes if someone can point the way to them.) This peak ratio difference of 7.5 (1990) vs. 14.1 NOW is perhaps the best testament we have of the exigencies of "creative" financing... and mirrors another matrix in magnitude as reflected in the price to own a home/Implicit rent, essentially a P/E ratio that Krugman's now infamous chart for the LA region shows:

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/20/charting-the-housing-bubble/

Financially, MB's run-up is not that different from the run-up elsewhere in the Southland (may be greater) and the collapse may in fact be worse as pointed out above, vis a vis the dynamics of the last cycle.

Just comparing these ratios suggests that we are currently atop the highest mountain reached in the housing history of MB. Relative to where we stand today, the last cycle was but a hill.

One of my personal heroes is Warren Buffett who in his Berkshire Hathaway 2001 Chairman's Letter said:

"You only find out who is swimming naked when the tide goes out."

http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/2001ar/2001letter.html

I'll let your imagination fill in the rest of the details about what is going to happen in the forthcoming months and years, now that the reckless financing spigot is gone and we head into a likely period of increasing inflation and a recession of deepening concern.

Imho, we'll see a drop in excess of the last cycle when it is all said and done.

To guide our forthcoming multi-year meditation, here is a final thought:

Whoever wishes to foresee the future must consult the past; for human events ever resemble those of preceding times. This arises from the fact that they are produced by men who ever have been, and ever shall be, animated by the same passions, and thus they necessarily have the same results.

Nicollo Machiavelli

JR said...

Angry,
What's your point? Is it that you don't agree with MBW's analysis or that you don't agree with the DQ data? Seriously, your point that MBW's data when combined with your MLS data shows a 19% increase between 1994 and 1995 is just odd. In your previous paragraph, you point out that the MLS shows $436k for the 1995 and you say DQ shows approximately $400k for 1995. Crikey, with those numbers DQ is actually showing about 9% increase from 1994 to 1995 not some outlandish 19% that you point to in an attempt to discredit MBW's analysis. You are comparing the statistics of two data sets that have, for some reason, different populations and it is incorrect to do that unless you want to muddy the waters and cast aspersion on things that contradict what you are arguing.

And, by the way, everybody is so proud of you and how you got lucky buying a house here in the early 90's (previously I think you said 1994) near the bottom. I wonder how loud your boasting would be if you had actaully bought in July of 1990.

Huggy said...

The pedantic Anon7, now Anon 11:31 strikes again. Must really be wearing out the pages of that thesaurus. You wouldn't know this, Mr "I rent because I choose to live below my means", but there are some very wealthy people moving into the area with lots of cash who are unaffected by the credit markets and aren't relying on people reading eye charts to fund their downpayment.

Anon 2:00 - Karl Hungus - German porn star and key character in The Big Lebowski. Yep, you found me out.

MBWatcher said...

Hugs, are your MLS searches including condos and THs, or not?

Huggy said...

JR, is reading for comprehension beyond your ability? I merely said there are discrepancies. But, since you are clueless, I will note that the 19% increase is a reflection of the 1995 median for all MLS-reported sales compared to the 1994 bottom as calculated by MBW. Don't you think a +19% increase at a time when the median for LA County and the Southland as a whole was still dropping is odd?

And, btw, if I had bought at the 1990 peak, my house would have almost tripled in value by now. If you were reading for comprehension, you'd note that I bought at a point that was about 7% under the peak (according to MBW's calcs).

MBW - I can search all sales (SFRs, THs and condos) or just SFRs (or just condos and THs). When I looked at the MLS median for 1995, I looked at all home sales, including condos and THs. However, I am hamstrung by the fact that MRMLS won't let me see more than 500 entries at a time so for calendar years after 1995 (up until very recently, obviously) I apparently am unable to get a median for all sales and am forced to break it down into SFRs and condos/THs (not a big fan of MRMLS for a number of reasons, this being one of them).

JR said...

Angry,
The only wealthy people who are unaffected by turmoil in the credits markets, i.e. turmoil within the financial community, are law-breakers. Others may not know they are affected, i.e. professional athletes, but that does not mean they are not negatively affected.

Anonymous said...

15% Drop Huggy, nay, Clueless Huggy, aka, MB Realtor "Bob X" (for now) of Shorewood, who knows precious little of the history of MB real estate (to be kind) or is a willful and obnoxious liar (more likely) -- either way, it's pathetic. Can you imagine him as your Realtor, given his narcissistic personality on this blog? I can't.

As MBW mentioned, keep pushing by making things personal if you want an outfest -- I have absolutely nothing to lose, but can't think of anyone who stands more to lose than you. Kapish?

Btw, I never got your fax # to clear up this "cash" issue you keep bringing up. Afraid of the facts are you?

Go on now, do use that dictionary of yours to figure out what "pathetic" and "liar" actually means.

Great Realtor advice btw, buy a home at a P/I ratio of 14 when it may well go down to below 7 -- really lookin' out for your buy side clients champ! ;-)

Always a GREAT time to buy right?

Anonymous said...

MBW, If you ban Huggy to anonymitity this blog might be a more constructive place. His posts are increasingly vulgar and when you add into the equation that he's incredibly innaccurate, the solution is simple. The Huggy person